Ah Peter the skin has fallen from your eyes. So you might agree with me that we do as the French do with their cobblestones? Then out on the streets and frighten the sh*t out of our oh so comfy government ..(I use 'government' in a comical way as they are nothing but a shower of...you fill in the blank)...... now happily and cosily set for life in their wee sinecures. Probably dreaming what to spend their £20,000 pay rise on. Maybe we could drag them kicking and screaming oot o' the cesspit while building a border between us and the parasitic foreign english. Sorry you were disappointed but you should have asked me ....and the rest of the population some of whom are eating out of foodbanks, trying to keep warm and pay the bills.... ....and would love a £20,000 pay rise. Anyway gentleman John is off to see the pope buried. I mean what is more important than that. ......dare I suggest INDEPENDENCE EVEN FREEDOM for our nation? I suppose we can dream on....and keep looking for cobblestones...
I favour a democratic political process. So long as there is such a process available to us, there is no justification for resort to sobblestones. I sincerely hope that time never comes.
On that note, I have to recognise that our politicians are playing a dangerous game. They are - some of them, at leaset - seeking to rouse the people to anger at the way Scotland is treated under the Union. But at the same time, they are offering no way out. That is playing with fire.
I'd like to believe that newly elected MP's or MSP's enter their respective parliaments with the best of intentions, with those intentions hopefully based on their pre election promises. I'm not naïve enough though, to believe that they will then fight tooth and nail to ensure that these pre-election issues are seen through to a satisfactory conclusion. Entry into the political lion's den inevitably becomes round after round of horse trading. If you vote with us to close "X", then we will vote with you to save "Y", with the unthinkable alternative being that neither of the two are saved. This regular level of disillusionment I'm fairly sure, has led to the current level of apathy that seems to be prevalent amongst our so called independence intentioned politicians. This political indolence I surmise then becomes reinforced by the need to "not rock the boat" for the following two reasons; 1 -not alienating one's party hierarchy and 2 - not jeopardising one's new and not insignificant income. The only way for the voting public to effect change, is for us to initiate a means to jeopardise that income. The Indy Movement needs to come together and ensure that potential MSP's in 2026 know that this is their last chance to serve the needs of the voters, or be subsequently cast aside at a future election. If there is no pain for politicians, there is no gain for Scotland as a country. I am sick to the back teeth of the term "supermajority" being bandied about by both voters and political party manifestos, as if this is some form of a majority that automatically gives us our independence or at least a foothold on the staircase to independence. Sadly, it does neither, unless those elected by us suddenly feel the need to do something positive in that direction. I sincerely doubt that will happen after the 2026 Holyrood election. It will more than likely be a case of comfy slippers on, feet under the table, and let the expenses roll in. This is why the independence situation has stagnated since 2014, and without a change from us, the voting public, it will continue as is.
The only thing I would take issue with, Alan, is your mention of "future election". To my way of thinking, putting things off for another five years is not acceptable. The threat has to be effective at the 2026 election. That is why the Manifesto for Independence Petition includes a promise not to vote for any party that has not adopted the MfI.
To be effective, the threat has to be real and immediate.
I am viewing the 2026 election as a last chance mate since we cannot react to something that hasn't actually happened yet. Action is needed now though. In fact it has been needed since 2014 to be fair. I completely agree that adoption of your MFI or something else to that effect has to happen prior to the 2026 Holyrood election and that requires the independence community to pool their resources and push this out to the supposedly pro independence parties, and the greater voting public. Until that happens, then nothing new happens :(
Hi Peter, glad to read that in every cold morning of your days there are still those moments where reality does not exist and ideal pictures of the World are passing in front of your eyes, swirling in the volutes of a steamy coffee (or tea ) ...at least on Thurdays' 😉.
People are listening Peter even if not active. After the Election will be the moment to put all your efforts in. I am afraid the results will scare a lot of people who have Independence in their heart or mind at least.
Wish though Salvo's attempt wasn't attacked that much in your words. They don't arm no one and finding a way outside an election process is more than welcome. Elections so far have only brought disappointments for so many years Let them in peace 🤣... we never know. Independence has nothing to do with political party or economics...As you say it has to be taken...Keep the good fight Peter.
Even if there was any reason to believe the independence movement learns from past mistakes, I fear that after the election will be too late. We'll be stuck with much the same as we've had since 2015. If we elect a parliament that isn't committed to anything, all we can sensibly expect is nothing.
I do not attack the Salvo/Liberation initiative. I merely point out the fact that should it be successful, it only helps if there is a political process in place that can exploit that success. Unfortunately, a great many people have convinced themselves that the Salvo/Liberation initiative IS the process. It absolutely is not! But try telling people that and you're accused of 'attacking' the initiative. People don't want to know the truth. They don't want fact's that contradict their comforting delusions.
I also point out that should the initiative fail, it could be a major setback for Scotland's cause. How much of a setback depends on the terms of the knockback. But regardless, a refusal to add Scotland to the list of non-self-governing territories is bound to be packaged and presented as validation of the Union.
To summarise, the Salvo/Liberation initiative is a gamble in which we stand to gain something that will only be useful in conjunction with a political process that we are not going to have unless the Manifesto for Independence campaign succeeds. Which looks very unlikely. Not least because people imagine the Salvo/Liberation initiative is a solution. And there are other 'solutions' which are similarly delusional.
On the other hand, losing the gamble means Scotland's cause is deprived of the whole 'liberation' argument that has been gaining ground in recent years. That could be disastrous.
"Attack"was a bit strong and i welcome the answer. I suppose they are as convinced as you are with yours regarding their intentions.😉. Another "confirmation" of the Union will make no difference and if Salvo loses their plea i doubt that the Unionist will feast on it. I won't if i them, scaring to awake people who has no clue about Salvo's initiative and they are many. What will comfort the Union is sadly going to be the next year result if SNP cannot get into gears. I strongly doubt they will unfortunately and what i see is a labour/ lib dem/ Greens gvt in Holyrood. But regarding independence it doesn't matter or it could get favorable if they decide to dismantle all the social advancements Snp had set up ( before 2014 i mean of course... after that 🙄). No political party will grant us Independence Peter, it never happened that way. People in the streets, Unions did but shit has to hit the fan widely and it doesn't, it won't. We missed it in 2014 because Alex Salmond and the Snp got gob smack at the poll a week before the Elections and just sat there while down there they had already book their train tickets direction up North. Being in this situation will never happen again...The only political outcome for me that would be a start for a change is several Indy parties ( i don't count the Greens) in Parliament with a strong majority and a joined manifesto for Independence but the snp won't go for it, Alba ? So you are on the right track i think Peter but have to be heard and have to find support and find ways to compromise whithout compromising the Essential..
i agree with you, One proposal. I doubt that the carrierists in the SNP ranks will agree though 🤣,the same with Alba. They will tell you (if they actually dare speak to you ) amongst other rubbish :' if that doen't win we are doomed for life' (sounds like 😉). If nobody explain in intelligible terms how each individual could profit from Indy, repeteadly, constantly with a massive billboard or whatever campaign, in our face all the times, i don't know how an election could lead to success...
The difference with mine is that it is a process that has independence at the end of it while the Salvo/Liberation initiative ends well short of independence. It requires something further. The something further that it requires is what you refer to as mine - although I don't make a big issue of claiming ownership of the #ScottishUDI process. Too many other people have had input - knowingly or otherwise.
The best guide we have to the outcome of the 2026 election is polling. The last time I checked, the polls were 'predicting' a large (nominally) pro-independence majority with the SNP as the largest (dominant) party. I know of no reason to suppose there might be the coalition you foresee. If we are going by gut feeling and/or educated guessing, I'd say the polls have it about right.
Of course, that could all change over the next few months. But we can only speculate with the information we have. Or whatever our gut may be telling us right this moment. Mine is telling me I shouldn't have skipped breakfast this morning.
I have not a shred of doubt that I am right. I am seldom as certain about anything as I am about #ScottishUDI and the Manifesto for Independence. Bear in mind that this has been on the table for six years and in all that time nobody has been able to point to any fatal flaw in the process. Nor has anyone proposed a credible alternative. My confidence regarding #ScottishUDI and the MfI is NOT a faith position or a matter of personal pride. It is an entirely rational attitude.
Understandable thinking on your part. It chimes with my own thoughts on the whole Scottish political scene for the past decade. Maybe that's how the system works: ie you need a charismatic leader like Alex Salmond with a strategy of sorts, even though it's not as thought-through as yours is.
It's true that to get a message across it is necessary to have the messenger be someone who can attract the attention of the media. I do not see myself as that person. I'm not well-endowed with charisma. Too-plain-spoken. And not pretty enough these days.
Ah Peter the skin has fallen from your eyes. So you might agree with me that we do as the French do with their cobblestones? Then out on the streets and frighten the sh*t out of our oh so comfy government ..(I use 'government' in a comical way as they are nothing but a shower of...you fill in the blank)...... now happily and cosily set for life in their wee sinecures. Probably dreaming what to spend their £20,000 pay rise on. Maybe we could drag them kicking and screaming oot o' the cesspit while building a border between us and the parasitic foreign english. Sorry you were disappointed but you should have asked me ....and the rest of the population some of whom are eating out of foodbanks, trying to keep warm and pay the bills.... ....and would love a £20,000 pay rise. Anyway gentleman John is off to see the pope buried. I mean what is more important than that. ......dare I suggest INDEPENDENCE EVEN FREEDOM for our nation? I suppose we can dream on....and keep looking for cobblestones...
UDI
For OUR Scotland and her weans!
I favour a democratic political process. So long as there is such a process available to us, there is no justification for resort to sobblestones. I sincerely hope that time never comes.
On that note, I have to recognise that our politicians are playing a dangerous game. They are - some of them, at leaset - seeking to rouse the people to anger at the way Scotland is treated under the Union. But at the same time, they are offering no way out. That is playing with fire.
I'd like to believe that newly elected MP's or MSP's enter their respective parliaments with the best of intentions, with those intentions hopefully based on their pre election promises. I'm not naïve enough though, to believe that they will then fight tooth and nail to ensure that these pre-election issues are seen through to a satisfactory conclusion. Entry into the political lion's den inevitably becomes round after round of horse trading. If you vote with us to close "X", then we will vote with you to save "Y", with the unthinkable alternative being that neither of the two are saved. This regular level of disillusionment I'm fairly sure, has led to the current level of apathy that seems to be prevalent amongst our so called independence intentioned politicians. This political indolence I surmise then becomes reinforced by the need to "not rock the boat" for the following two reasons; 1 -not alienating one's party hierarchy and 2 - not jeopardising one's new and not insignificant income. The only way for the voting public to effect change, is for us to initiate a means to jeopardise that income. The Indy Movement needs to come together and ensure that potential MSP's in 2026 know that this is their last chance to serve the needs of the voters, or be subsequently cast aside at a future election. If there is no pain for politicians, there is no gain for Scotland as a country. I am sick to the back teeth of the term "supermajority" being bandied about by both voters and political party manifestos, as if this is some form of a majority that automatically gives us our independence or at least a foothold on the staircase to independence. Sadly, it does neither, unless those elected by us suddenly feel the need to do something positive in that direction. I sincerely doubt that will happen after the 2026 Holyrood election. It will more than likely be a case of comfy slippers on, feet under the table, and let the expenses roll in. This is why the independence situation has stagnated since 2014, and without a change from us, the voting public, it will continue as is.
The only thing I would take issue with, Alan, is your mention of "future election". To my way of thinking, putting things off for another five years is not acceptable. The threat has to be effective at the 2026 election. That is why the Manifesto for Independence Petition includes a promise not to vote for any party that has not adopted the MfI.
To be effective, the threat has to be real and immediate.
I am viewing the 2026 election as a last chance mate since we cannot react to something that hasn't actually happened yet. Action is needed now though. In fact it has been needed since 2014 to be fair. I completely agree that adoption of your MFI or something else to that effect has to happen prior to the 2026 Holyrood election and that requires the independence community to pool their resources and push this out to the supposedly pro independence parties, and the greater voting public. Until that happens, then nothing new happens :(
Getting your message/point across to a room of activists was, achieved, Peter. Not a wasted evening by any measure, I'm bound to say.
Thank you for the encouragement. It is needed right now.
Hi Peter, glad to read that in every cold morning of your days there are still those moments where reality does not exist and ideal pictures of the World are passing in front of your eyes, swirling in the volutes of a steamy coffee (or tea ) ...at least on Thurdays' 😉.
People are listening Peter even if not active. After the Election will be the moment to put all your efforts in. I am afraid the results will scare a lot of people who have Independence in their heart or mind at least.
Wish though Salvo's attempt wasn't attacked that much in your words. They don't arm no one and finding a way outside an election process is more than welcome. Elections so far have only brought disappointments for so many years Let them in peace 🤣... we never know. Independence has nothing to do with political party or economics...As you say it has to be taken...Keep the good fight Peter.
Paul
Even if there was any reason to believe the independence movement learns from past mistakes, I fear that after the election will be too late. We'll be stuck with much the same as we've had since 2015. If we elect a parliament that isn't committed to anything, all we can sensibly expect is nothing.
I do not attack the Salvo/Liberation initiative. I merely point out the fact that should it be successful, it only helps if there is a political process in place that can exploit that success. Unfortunately, a great many people have convinced themselves that the Salvo/Liberation initiative IS the process. It absolutely is not! But try telling people that and you're accused of 'attacking' the initiative. People don't want to know the truth. They don't want fact's that contradict their comforting delusions.
I also point out that should the initiative fail, it could be a major setback for Scotland's cause. How much of a setback depends on the terms of the knockback. But regardless, a refusal to add Scotland to the list of non-self-governing territories is bound to be packaged and presented as validation of the Union.
To summarise, the Salvo/Liberation initiative is a gamble in which we stand to gain something that will only be useful in conjunction with a political process that we are not going to have unless the Manifesto for Independence campaign succeeds. Which looks very unlikely. Not least because people imagine the Salvo/Liberation initiative is a solution. And there are other 'solutions' which are similarly delusional.
On the other hand, losing the gamble means Scotland's cause is deprived of the whole 'liberation' argument that has been gaining ground in recent years. That could be disastrous.
"Attack"was a bit strong and i welcome the answer. I suppose they are as convinced as you are with yours regarding their intentions.😉. Another "confirmation" of the Union will make no difference and if Salvo loses their plea i doubt that the Unionist will feast on it. I won't if i them, scaring to awake people who has no clue about Salvo's initiative and they are many. What will comfort the Union is sadly going to be the next year result if SNP cannot get into gears. I strongly doubt they will unfortunately and what i see is a labour/ lib dem/ Greens gvt in Holyrood. But regarding independence it doesn't matter or it could get favorable if they decide to dismantle all the social advancements Snp had set up ( before 2014 i mean of course... after that 🙄). No political party will grant us Independence Peter, it never happened that way. People in the streets, Unions did but shit has to hit the fan widely and it doesn't, it won't. We missed it in 2014 because Alex Salmond and the Snp got gob smack at the poll a week before the Elections and just sat there while down there they had already book their train tickets direction up North. Being in this situation will never happen again...The only political outcome for me that would be a start for a change is several Indy parties ( i don't count the Greens) in Parliament with a strong majority and a joined manifesto for Independence but the snp won't go for it, Alba ? So you are on the right track i think Peter but have to be heard and have to find support and find ways to compromise whithout compromising the Essential..
Take good care
Paul
i agree with you, One proposal. I doubt that the carrierists in the SNP ranks will agree though 🤣,the same with Alba. They will tell you (if they actually dare speak to you ) amongst other rubbish :' if that doen't win we are doomed for life' (sounds like 😉). If nobody explain in intelligible terms how each individual could profit from Indy, repeteadly, constantly with a massive billboard or whatever campaign, in our face all the times, i don't know how an election could lead to success...
The difference with mine is that it is a process that has independence at the end of it while the Salvo/Liberation initiative ends well short of independence. It requires something further. The something further that it requires is what you refer to as mine - although I don't make a big issue of claiming ownership of the #ScottishUDI process. Too many other people have had input - knowingly or otherwise.
The best guide we have to the outcome of the 2026 election is polling. The last time I checked, the polls were 'predicting' a large (nominally) pro-independence majority with the SNP as the largest (dominant) party. I know of no reason to suppose there might be the coalition you foresee. If we are going by gut feeling and/or educated guessing, I'd say the polls have it about right.
Of course, that could all change over the next few months. But we can only speculate with the information we have. Or whatever our gut may be telling us right this moment. Mine is telling me I shouldn't have skipped breakfast this morning.
I have not a shred of doubt that I am right. I am seldom as certain about anything as I am about #ScottishUDI and the Manifesto for Independence. Bear in mind that this has been on the table for six years and in all that time nobody has been able to point to any fatal flaw in the process. Nor has anyone proposed a credible alternative. My confidence regarding #ScottishUDI and the MfI is NOT a faith position or a matter of personal pride. It is an entirely rational attitude.
Not a single party but a single proposal.
Understandable thinking on your part. It chimes with my own thoughts on the whole Scottish political scene for the past decade. Maybe that's how the system works: ie you need a charismatic leader like Alex Salmond with a strategy of sorts, even though it's not as thought-through as yours is.
It's true that to get a message across it is necessary to have the messenger be someone who can attract the attention of the media. I do not see myself as that person. I'm not well-endowed with charisma. Too-plain-spoken. And not pretty enough these days.
Plain speaking was always an honest trait of the Scots. ..do not apologise for being honest.
UDI
For OUR Scotland and her weans.