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John Love - Lovephotoandvideo's avatar

I don't disagree. Not one bit.

Most folk will vote SNP1 and SNP2 and given Reform are splitting the vote the SNP will romp home in the 1st vote anyway. the list vote, well the SNP will just say who cares about the also rans....

Even when they try to form a government....they'll run to the Greens and look forward 5 years...

It saddens my heart that they can carry on like this.

I have had very little hope since 2014 and only Salvo initially then Liberation Scotland has lifted my mood. Your idea to ignore Westminster as an irrelevance is spot on but obviously ahead of it's time given the desire of the politicos to just ignore it and take advantage of the great remuneration for 5 years.... It's time will come. Hang in there Peter.

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John Love - Lovephotoandvideo's avatar

Peter. You keep us going. we know what's required for UDI, and Independence. you've told us all often enough but it's worth repeating it again and again. even if your only 60% correct or 100%, things will develop.....

the proletariat need lead, they need guidance from the likes of you, and Salvo and Liberation Scotland and AUOB and SSRG and many more of good intent.

just because someone like me writes a half a paragraph stating independence can be declared soon, doesn't mean you have to screetch at the moon. WE are all in this together....we will require to unite, we will need to speak with one voice and the Parliament will need to be redefined. The politicos inside will need to be dragged to the party or sent packing.

a forum will be required for all to speak and agree on the path if not the destination and whether that forum is the devolutionist parliament building or speakers bloody corner matters not one jot. it's what gets agreed and then actioned that matters. we don't need to agree on every aspect of the entire process. we just need to start walking the walk and talking the talk until we all arrive at the place where our destiny becomes reality.

keep you chin up Peter.

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Peter A Bell's avatar

If it were just one or two people talking as if the independence campaign was going 'super well', I'd have no reason to "screech at the moon". (Which is not something I can imagine myself doing under any circumstances.)

The problem is that by far the larger part of the independence movement is lost in various fantasies about 'where stands Scotland now'. It's not only that they aren't aware of the reality of our situation and clueless as to how we get out of it. What really grinds me down is that so many just don't want to know. They react with vehemence and vitriol to any attempt to bring reality into focus. You only have to read some of the comments here to see what I mean.

Not that the personal attacks trouble me at all. Even the lies told about me and my thinking don't offend me as much as they once did. It all just makes me weary and fills me with despair for Scotland's cause.

Most of the independence movement genuinely believes Scotland's cause is on the bus rolling towards independence, the passengers all singing and chanting merrily. In fact, Scotland's cause is standing freezing at Inverness bus station going nowhere. The service that will take it to the destination is sitting there, engine running and ready to go. But nobody is getting on board because, in their heads, they're already on a bus rolling towards independence, singing and chanting merrily.

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Stuart McColl's avatar

I've seen a Salvo/Liberation Scotland video on YouTube (I 'm stuck at Stansted airport trying to save battery power..so daren't search for it to get a link..woe is me!) but they were proposing something similar to the system used in Switzerland where citizens can vote directly and frequently on policies and whatever by post and presumably online. I'm not well up it as it was a while ago. I'm sure there are snags with that but it is one more modern way where the people can have more direct power. I'm sure we could come up with some innovative way of keeping to the spirit of the old ways without burning witches etc. ( pity...I wouldn't mind nominating a few 😄)

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Peter A Bell's avatar

I have no doubt more direct democracy would be a good thing. But I object to people 'selling' it as a route to independence via a proper constitutional referendum. I object because it isn't. And also because rolling out Swiss-style direct democracy will take years - perhaps decades.

That's if it is even possible. Direct democracy demands high levels of participation. Any form of democracy does. But the more direct it is, the greater the need to maximise the percentage of the population playing an active role. Scottish voters are lazy compared to Swiss voters. They have been 'conditioned' to see voting as a chore. Where else but the UK could a concept such as 'voter fatigue' be taken seriously?

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Robert T's avatar

I have to laugh at comments that deride and denigrate the work of SALVO SSRG and Liberate Scotland , IF it wasn't for Sara Salyers and the other organisers within these groups stepping up to the plate the independence movement would be even more disgruntled and disorganised

At her first appearance at the first ALBA conference she was a breath of fresh air and was heralded and applauded by the membership for her fresh approach to the independence fight , everyone idolises Alex Salmond in his fight for independence but his antipathy and alienation towards Sara and her insistence that we ARE a colonised people was a egregious mistake IMO , I felt that he was jealous of the attention Sara and SALVO were gaining

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Peter A Bell's avatar

The contrast between reality and what you imagine grows ever more stark. I have never derided nor denigrated the work of Salvo or SSRG. (Liberate Scotland is a farce. So, there's really nothing else to do but mock it. Although you could maybe persuade me otherwise if you list all the "work" they do for Scotland's cause.)

I really don't know where you get all this crap. I have been a member of Salvo since its earliest days and have worked with it from time to time. SSRG I have described as one of the most important organisations in the independence movement. It's conferences are now major events.

Sara Salyers is a person who has my undying admiration and respect. I had the privilege of working with here and others in the Salvo team on the Stirling Directive and it was a very rewarding experience.

That is the reality of my attitude to these organisations. If that doesn't match with your warped imaginings, you'll just have to deal with it. But I fear someone who thinks the SNP is my "favourite party" may have parted company with reality permanently.

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Stephen Duncan's avatar

Peter was merely pointing out that the assertion that the Claim of Right (1689) can be invoked is not accompanied with a description of how this may be invoked.

After all the pre-1707 mechanisms no longer exist, at least in the form that they did then, so it seems valid to question how they might be employed. The #ScottishUDI process, on the other hand, uses the infrastructure that we have available right now - the Scottish Parliament that we fought tooth and nail to get reconvened. We need to have it repurposed.

In numerous other pieces he has been complimentary about the work that Salvo, Liberation Scotland and SSRG have done on the educational, international and research fronts. That dovetails neatly with the domestic process of #ScottishUDI that he has articulated.

I am not sure why you mention Liberate Scotland - as distinct from Liberation Scotland - as it is no where referenced in the article.

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your n4m3's avatar

Robert T.

You do not need to use your imagination to invent a motivation to ascribe an emotional motivation to the man who was the Alba party leader.

Don't you think that upon saying it out loud that this sounds like an almost astonishingly niave position to create for yourself?

Have not you considered that such an experienced and thoughtful person must have had a REASON for adopting the explicitly overtly negative social signalling that you observed?

Surely you are not so shallow a thinker as to ignore that factors other than emotion play a significant if not predominant role in the CHOICES of a successful political leader.

Perhaps you should try thinking about WHY Robert.

Alex Salmond was deeply wedded to the idea that Political leaders (i.e. HIM) direct political parties, who are IN CHARGE of directing parliaments.

He was dead against the very idea that the people should be able to put the politicians in their subservient position of implementers of the peoples will.

Sadly this lifelong indoctrination in the British way was a major failure in his political outlook.

Of course you may ask, How do you know? I know.

I you had been perspicacious enough to find this out for yourself while Alex was still alive, you could have cornered him in Public and had him answer your direct questions to reveal his inate pro parliamentary and anti direct democracy bias.

But you aren't, and you didn't.

Too late for that now, isn't it.

Just as well someone else did it already, isn't it.

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Robert T's avatar

OH let's continue to increase the NEGATIVITY Peter by destroying any and all suggestions made by anyone other than yourself and of course your favourite party the snp who you have apologised and sycophantically shilled for for years, never mind that they are not listening to you or anyone else and have not listened to anyone for 11 years other than perverts and deviants, I am sure they will come around to your thinking anytime soon and allow you to get back on the love boat , meanwhile keep on increasing the negativity I am sure the snp appreciate it

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Peter A Bell's avatar

Sentences are good.

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Alan J Grant's avatar

If we're to be resurrecting old customs from that era, I can think of a few prominent politicians from the Southern reaches of our (dis)United Kingdom who might benefit from a "cleansing" by fire.

All kidding aside, you are correct in what you say Pete. The validity of some acts/customs/traditions etc, do not necessarily stand the test of several hundred years of time. On the other hand though, the declaration of Arbroath 1320, and the Claim of Right 1689, whilst ancient, are still held dear to us Scots. Many of us are rightfully angry at the continued subjugation of our country by a larger country/coloniser and unsurprisingly will be in favour of reaching out for any passing hope of deliverance. That is patently natural for those who are oppressed, and/or desperate.

Our "nobles" (and I use that term very loosely) conscripted us into this unholy union, and I fail to see any reason why our elected "nobles" cannot facilitate the reverse. Whilst our parliament may be an English creation, that does not mean it has to be owned by them in perpetuity. The parliament is on our land, the politicians are voted in by the Scots electorate, and it remains an English plaything, only as long as we allow it to be. A change in our attitude is long overdue. We need to stop using "CAN WE" and start using "WE CAN". It starts with your MFI or some similar directive being appended to the potential election of politicians to Holyrood. That, and a little bit of moral fortitude to finally stand up to our oppressors. Change IS coming. It may be a slow process but seeds have been planted recently, by Salvo, by the rise of the ugly right wing down South, by the dissension in the SNP over Swinney's "route" to independence, etc, that will hopefully bear fruit in the coming years.

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Geoff Bush's avatar

"It was done in 1689 AND it can be done today" is a 2-part sentence of 2 statements. "It was done in 1689 SO it can be done today" is a different construction with a different meaning. The first version is the one which was used, no implication. Only the second infers a link and it has not been used in this context. Semantics? I don't think so.

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Peter A Bell's avatar

You missed the bit where you explain HOW it can be done today. Everybody does! We get lots of rousing rhetoric about how we can do this or that. Just as we get a load of guff about how voting for this party will bring independence. Or signing this document will bring independence. Or supporting this project will bring independence.

What we never get is a detailed explanation of HOW any of these things actually connects to the restoration of independence. We get the sales spiel. We never see the product.

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Geoff Bush's avatar

& no, it wont directly bring independence, but its consequences can put another hole in the wall.

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Geoff Bush's avatar

I did miss that bit, and I hate it when people say "trust me" , but . . . . .

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David Smith's avatar

The claim of Right is Great Start but it needs modernized without the oppressors corruption .

We have to learn from England's mistakes and show the world there is a better way.

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John Love - Lovephotoandvideo's avatar

There's loads of things wrong in this world! It's easy to get distracted on Immigration, Genocide in Gaza or proving the Claim of Right is still law but being ignored.....let others take on those fights. Stick to the knitting at the UN and don't get drawn into cul-de-sacs that just dilute the most important message. 1. Scotland needs to be listed for decolonisation. 2. Scotland needs to fight for the restoration of the sovereignty of our people. 3. Declare our independence to the world and ask for recognition and support.

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Peter A Bell's avatar

This sort of thing makes me want to weep in despair.

1. The UN initiative WILL NOT restore Scotland's independence. Even if Scotland is listed as a NSGT, we could stay on that list for decades.

2. The people of Scotland are sovereign. That is NOT what we need to fight for. What we need to fight for - regardless of anything that happens at the UN - is the means of exercising our right of self-determination.

3. There is a massive and crucial chunk missing prior to this bold statement. There is no such thing as magic. We do not magically arrive at the point where we declare independence. Things have to be done in order to get to that point. It is called a process.

I have been trying to explain this for six years. I'm on the verge of deciding it's hopeless.

Scotland's cause is fucked. It is fucked because hardly anyone understands what that cause is. They simply don't grasp the nature of the struggle. This is true even of the professional politicians. Although perhaps for different reasons.

I really am wasting my time with the whole thing. I cannot have any effect.

I have one more thing to do in early October. Then I'm out. I've said this before, of course. But previously all I needed was a break. It's different this time. For the first time in my life, I don't want to be part of the independence movement. I just want to be done with it.

I wasn't planning on writing the above. But it is ggenuinely how I feel. It is how I have felt for many months. Now, my health is being affected. For no purpose.

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Stephen Duncan's avatar

I second what Robert Hughes said previously.

In addition it would indeed seem that no amount of reasoned repetition will cut through to some folk ... just yet.

So stay in the game - yer country needs YES!

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Robert Hughes's avatar

May I suggest you put your mental, emotional & physical health first. Peter? In the end, any of us can only do so much in trying to bring about what we consider - deeply feel - would be improved circumstances and if these efforts are or appear to be having no effect, I think we have to adopt a kind of philosophical acceptance that - for the time being anyway- this is the way things are: maybe taking some solace in small victories and greater solace in the still beautiful world around us.

I had a liitle such epiphanic interlude yesterday when a flock of migrant waxwings graced our garden - specifically the berries of the rowan tree therein: this used to be an annual occurrence but I haven't seen them for a few years, although I could simply have missed their fleeting presence in my garden or surrounding areas.

Anyway, and unexpected and much appreciated gift from that - much larger - part of Nature that doesn't give a fck about the ( for the most part self-inflicted ) trials n tribulations of it's human dimension.

Take care of yrsel, big yin. Your country- and I'm sure family - need/s you :)

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your n4m3's avatar

"I really am wasting my time with the whole thing. I cannot have any effect."

Respectfully Peter, I disagree.

As an example, for about 3 years after Alf Baird published his book 'Doun Hauden' there was a slow slow slow spreading of appreciation that the ideas it contained are directly relevant to Scotlands cause.

Only us few political anoraks had read it and understood immediately what he was saying.

Over the subsequent year it has now become the norm in independence circles to hear those ideas in common circulation.

The breakthrough has happened.

People no longer scoff.

Is is now just obvious that Scotland has the example of 60 to 80 now independent former colonies to learn from.

The 'New Thinking' as Alf called it is going mainstream.

The same will happen with the slow dawning of understanding over process and parliamentary competence to legislate.

It just takes time Peter.

If it can be done in another three years, then we may be in time for when the UN Committee decides to look at the Salvo case ! ;-)

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Catherine McNamara's avatar

So Sara you want to turn the clock back? Well let's go further back..Bannockburn! We see the beautiful free Scots in schiltrons carrying their beloved Saltire facing the creeping crawling quislings, traitors, illegal white settlers( that would be the english sh*te polluting our country)and anyone who wants to keep Scotland a prisoner in this foreign toxic union. SD could calculate the % of the Scots winning...100% of course...(I worked it oot yesterday.)

OR....

We could go with the blessed FM's insane section 30 request as demonstrated so clearly by Sturgeon..REFUSAL. So what's next swiney when you are REFUSED AGAIN and the Scots realise the gemme's a bogey. What's your next move... another section 30 piece of excrement?

I reckon if you keep making mugs of the Scots ( just like the english keech) something will have to go....YOU! ( and bang goes yer wee sinecure)

Stay sane Peter.

For Scotland and her imprisoned weans

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